Comments on Away on Business: All his own work

Miriam: Thank you for the DC invitation. I'm afrai...

2008-04-18T14:25:00.000-07:00

Miriam: Thank you for the DC invitation. I'm afraid my idea of the perfect holiday is two weeks on the couch with no deadlines, and when I travel I travel for work, which means a very full itinerary. But thank you again.

I think clearly different series have different strengths, but it must be difficult to find any one book that satisfies the three uses you mention.

For detailed cultural history I like Blue Guides, and some Michelin guides (which are also usually detailed and reliable on food and accommodation). If I want reliable cultural material and other recommendations that are well-written and enjoyable to read, I choose Cadogan. (Disclosure: I have written for Cadogan, and their format is the one I prefer as a writer. But I think their Egypt guide, which I took when on a fam trip a few years ago--I don't think they publish it any more--was one of the most satisfying guides overall I've ever taken anywhere.) If I want nitty-gritty practical detail for unplanned independent travel (of which I do practically none, these days), I carefully examine Moon, Rough Guide, Bradt, and Footprint, as well as just looking around to see what else there is. For city guides I look to see if there's a Time Out, which, if the company also runs a magazine in the city, tends to have far and away the most comprehensive and detailed listings information (the Chinese editions are an exception--fairly hopeless, but then the Time Out magazines in China are not run by the parent organization, I hear; even under cover of a Chinese publisher).

I won't buy Lonely Planet even if there is no other guide available. When I was on assignment in Libya last year I came very close, but in the end decided probably having nothing was better than having that. This comprehensive aversion is the result of historic exposure to so much drivel, and perhaps I blame the first edition of Lonely Planet China for my current state of involvement in guide book writing. Even on my very first trip there in 1986 I was simply horrified at just how poorly written, ignorant, and entirely inconsistent the book was, to the point at which I desperately wanted to do better. I think it's often the feeling that just about anyone could do better than Lonely Planet that drives so many to want to get into this business. And of course the complete ruling out of Lonely Planet from my personal list of options is foolish. They must have some proper authors--people who not only know something about the countries they are researching before they start, but who can actually make coherent sentences in English (perhaps including others who have already responded to this thread). The early Japan books showed promise, but by (I think) the third edition were back to the usual have-backpack-will-go-anywhere hackery. Moon Japan, now abandoned, was anyway always a far better book, and even holds up fairly well now, eight(?) years since its last edition, if supplemented by something else that's newer.

The approach of merely using the guides as introductions to which areas in which to stay and generally only works if you're a budget traveller just looking for reliable refuelling. If you're serious about being in search of a gourmet experience then detailed descriptions of individual establishments are essential. And let's remember that is what a lot of travellers are looking for.

In haste.Shay Fodor: Your post has a greasy whiff ...

2008-04-17T15:47:00.000-07:00

In haste.

Shay Fodor: Your post has a greasy whiff of spam about it, not least since it has appeared in identical wording elsewhere.

I think it deserves a post of its own in response (although heaven knows when that will happen). But a brief summary would be that its remarks whether commercially drive or not are jejune, and its assertions do not stand up to even the most casual scrutiny.

I think another important point is that people use...

2008-04-17T08:05:00.000-07:00

I think another important point is that people use guidebooks for different purposes. My major uses are:
1) cultural background - particular with respect to potential taboos

2) a general idea of what destinations within a country I want to do further research on

3) ideas for further resources

There are some specifics in certain guidebooks that are useful, e.g. Frommer's and Fodors have reasonable walking tours for major well-traveled destinations. If I have one spare day in a city (say on a business trip), that can be a good starting point to organize my time.

I find it hard to imagine using guidebooks much for hotels and restaurants. But I know other people who do. What they can do is give me a general idea of where clusters of hotels and restaurants are, so I can decide what neighborhoods to look in (or avoid!)

Certainly for restaurants, my best source is always local contacts. (In countries where I speak the language, the local newspaper is often a good source, too.) I worked as a desk clerk at one point in my life and I was always happy to give tips to people who asked. I suspect I led more than a few conference goers to cheap meals at Joyce Chen's back in the day. (And, Peter, should you ever be in the D.C. area, I'd certainly be willing to find the time to take you to some of our local hidden gems.)

Great post! But I think that the big question is i...

2008-04-17T00:10:00.000-07:00

Great post! But I think that the big question is if we need travel guides in 2008, when we have fellow travelers on-line that are more up to date than a book who was edited 2 years ago. In the case of backpacker places, not once I have found myself following the recommendation of "Lonely Planet" just to find out that the place has lost its reputation longtime ago. With TripAdvisor, WAYN and http://www.triptouch.com , one can find very easily up to date recommendations, travel mates and all the travel info one's need to get oriented while traveling .

Travel guides need to adjust to the new era, minimize their books size and be more up to date if they want to survive the travel 2.0 era.

I have become increasingly leery of guidebooks aft...

2008-04-16T19:47:00.000-07:00

I have become increasingly leery of guidebooks after reading a guide to South Korea in which the authors stated that it was quite safe for women, or words to that effect. Having lived in Seoul as a female foreigner, with many female foreign and local friends, all of us having been targets of street harassment (which can be almost incessant in Seoul even if you are with a group of friends), grabbing and in some cases worse, I realized that this author had no idea of what he (and it was a he) was talking about.

Nonetheless, flawed guidebooks are mostly, IMO, an inconvenience for those visiting developed countries or major cities in less-developed countries. The real problem is the many books that purport to take you deep into the back of beyond e.g. remote Central Asia, Africa, etc. There, mistakes can be fatal.

laradunston: Thanks for your comment. If people di...

2008-04-16T14:45:00.000-07:00

laradunston: Thanks for your comment. If people didn't send in ten-page letters with corrections (or these days the email equivalent) I don't know how Lonely Planet would manage.

Certainly the only way to survive is by working for multiple publishers and in multiple media, and that's still a bit of a struggle. And one thing that Kohnstamm is right about (see subsequent interviews) is that the enthusiasts do burn out quickly.

msjones: Thank you for your response.Certainly in ...

2008-04-16T14:40:00.000-07:00

msjones: Thank you for your response.

Certainly in China, my main concern, it is guaranteed that books will be out of date well before they hit the shelves, because China changes so fast. But consider that with any guide book some of the information may have been gathered 18 months before the final text is submitted; two years before the book is in the shops.

But then there are those authors who make an effort to keep up with changes as they go, and those that don't. And there are updates that are done thoroughly, and those that aren't. I've updated titles where I could identify straight away restaurants that I knew to have been closed two editions before. First editions of many guides are the equivalent of beta software in an open source environment just waiting for the letters and email to arrive with corrections (and that then incorporated without adequate fact-checking). But updates are often requested without remotely adequate funds for travel being provided, or are just skimped because they are boring to do, and there's rarely any adequate checking by the publisher.

Inaccuracies in cultural and historical material are hardly surprising when you consider that many are sent to countries of which they have little or absolutely no previous experience. Again, the author biography won't tell you about the author's diligence, but it will tell you something about the extent of their knowledge. Or it will if it's not too busy establishing backpacker credentials (I've suffered more than you) or making jokes.

The problem with your theory of e-publications is the same as with that of many a travel website now: the medium isn't important. It's the content that is. Look at the rubbish found on web sites that require user contributions. For the power of instant updating to be used it requires professional researchers almost permanently on the ground. That requires an income stream so the researchers can put food on their tables, and no one has been able to come up with a business model for that, not least because no one wants to pay for what they find on the Web.

And to date there's no light, small, robust, low-cost device with guaranteed 24-hour access, no wireless connectivity required, and no voltage or battery problems to match the book. It's going to be with us for a long time yet.

Hi PeterThanks for the engaging post. There was a ...

2008-04-16T11:17:00.000-07:00

Hi Peter

Thanks for the engaging post. There was a lot here that I related to and agreed with, although obviously some points I didn't. I wrote with my husband 25 books for Lonely Planet over 4 years, and wrote an enormous amount of other content as well.

We became LP writers by accident - although we'd both worked as writers among other things in the past - and never really felt we 'fit' with the LP 'style'. Ironically, we were asked to submit a sample of writing and write for them after I'd sent in reams of notes pointing out gross errors in a seriously out-of-date book of theirs we'd used one summer. We've always written for other publishers also, magazines, newspapers and websites, so never became connected to the company in a way that other writers are.

You're right about recruitment of authors. There are some highly qualified authors writing for LP, and some older authors too, but they eventually get passed up for cheaper, younger authors. While I've been impressed with the qualifications of a lot of my former colleagues, I've been more baffled by the lack of experience of others, and it still astounds me how LP can continue to send writers to destinations where they have no experience whatsoever. I am a strong believer in a travel writer being a professional because they possess a wide range of skills - the ability to research well, read cultures, communicate with people, digest information, the skills of discernment, and so on, but regardless of how talented they are in these areas, to me they still need to have 'been' to a place!!

I could go on forever, but I have my own deadlines - for other publishers. It's wonderful to have discovered you and I'll check in regularly.

Good luck with the book!

Thanks for the illuminating post. I had always ass...

2008-04-16T07:23:00.000-07:00

Thanks for the illuminating post. I had always assumed that the minor inaccuracies (i.e., closed restaurants) was due to the lag time between a writer's visit and publication, and no doubt some of it is (which is why I think in the future the only up-to-date travel guides will be e-publications).

But inaccuracies in the history and culture sections is a more serious problem. For many travellers, those few paragraphs are the only background of the country they're ever going to read.

Finally, and completely off-topic: you should go to Brazil at least once before you die. A wonderful country.